Club News

LIVE BLOG: Fans' Forum

24th May

The live blog from tonight's Fans' Forum.

Summary

  • A snapshot of the questions and answers from the Forum at Brunton Park on 24 May 2022

17:48

We'll be live blogging during tonight's Fans' Forum here. 

17:55

Good evening everybody - we're testing the new official site facility tonight.

We'll be up and running in just over an hour or so.

17:56

Test to see if the live site updates automaically or not.

17:57

It does! 

18:02

Piccie test ...

18:04

18:29

Tonight's panel - Billy Atkinson (CUOSC), Nigel Clibbens, Suzanne Kidd, John Nixon and Steven Pattison.

18:37

Watch this via our YouTube livestream here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL3WEh_d_vw

19:03

Host Adrian Bell is kicking things off with a welcome.

19:05

Q - thanks from fans for appointment of PS. Successful demonstration of two parties coming together. Running alongside that is the massive frustration around debt, takeover - what is latest with Purepay and why are we at such an impasse?

19:09

This will require a long answer. The PS situation was good. Paul and I worked together way back in 06/7, and when Paul left to go to Preston I was on holiday, so didn't know he was going. In intervening years I kept in touch. The relationship was there so to make the call and sett up him coming back, it was an easy one. The 15 games were brillliant.

Being honest, when we had manager vacancy I would get in touch to see if he wanted to be on the shortlist. He always had something else on, so it didn't happen. When I made the first call it went to answerphone - I couldn't believe it.

5 mins later he called back and the talks were great. He decided to come back and from that day on the atmosphere around the club was like you'd taken a veil away. Suddenly there was optimism, and it's gone on from there.

19:11

EWM were on board for a period of time, then left the board when Fred was here. They came back to us in an hour of need, we needed cash badly at that time. To be fair, they haven't asked for any of it back and we have to acknowledge that. They always said they'd keep the wolves from our door, and they have done that. 

 

19:14

They've been very supportive, but we haven't asked for anything since 2019. We got to a point that we would effectively pass the club over to them in March 2019. That was agreed that it would happen. As company secretary, it was incumbent on me to write to EFL to notify them that new owners were coming. We agreed in the March to sign over shares, but when we came to sign up the deal had been slightly changed. It wasn't a single deal any more, it was in two phases that shares would shift. Some shares would go, some later in time. The Trust rightly said hang on, we didn't agree to that. It stalled, we went into the pandemic and everything kind of stopped.

19:17

All of our agreement was passed over to Purepay by the administrator, but the Trust held their stance that they didn't agree to the new deal. The Trust then pulled their support completely. I don't say they're wrong, I understand what they did. The difficulty was that some of the directors had signed their shares away - we had to take legal advice to see if it could happen that way when the deal had been pulled. It took until November that year to get legal confirmation on the deal, because it hadn't gone through. Our advice said the deal was dead in the water. We offered to pay them back, they turned it down. We asked for it to be negotiated, and that's still ongoing. We want to do that because if somebody says they want to invest in the club they don't want to put £1m into bank one day and next day it goes out to pay a debt.

19:18

That's why we're looking to sort that out. We want any money coming in to go to club, team, etc. It's difficult, it isn't an impasse. We just need a deal.

19:20

Three occasions where we were told the deal, as agreed, was going forward imminently, but it never moved. Then the deal was changed to something less. So, at the end of that year, we withdrew our support. One of the fundamental reasons is that at no time has the main party ever tried to speak to the Trust. They're a company that doesn't communicate, and that's our main reason for withdrawing support.

19:20

Q - John Jackson, is he not a means of communicating?

19:22

He is on the board, we do try to communicate through him. We don't go direct, we do everything through him. We try to operate that way. He's on our board, and as far as I know he's on Purepay board. We have an offer on table for how we would like to deal with the loan, so he's conflicted on that and he can't vote. Always difficult when he's on two boards, he can see what's in our account or what we'll pay for a player and may not agree with that.

19:22

Q - JJ, yes on board, we know he exists, does he attend board meetings?

19:26

Yes, of course, he's at all Holdings Board meetings, even the most recent. He attended on Zoom through pandemic and he takes his duty as a director properly.

He's not here to provide football advice or input, or even financial input - he has over 100 other directorships, so this isn't his main job. As we stopped borrowing cash, his involvement dropped and as time goes on it's getting less. 

What does he bring - his role is to oversee the loan on behalf of Purepay. He's their eyes and ears in terms of the loan.

He also provides a communications route. When he came on board it was really useful because we could explain what was happening at the club, and he could understand the dynamics of the club and explain to the people providing the money why it was needed. That's moved on, so he is now dealing with the old monies, and that's where the conflict of interest comes in.

19:26

Q - does he have a say on how money is spent?

19:27

If there are conflicts he doesn't vote, and that's where it gets complicated. He has one vote, and he won't use that vote if the conflicts arise.

19:28

If we're talking budgets he can express an opinion, but he's one vote in five, so he can be outvoted. At some point you have to spend more to get out of the bottom eight. The first thing done was to get the club back on an even keel, and we've done that through great day to day management. 

19:29

Financially we're on a really sound footing, but medium term and long term it's how the financial overaly fits into that.

19:29

Q - why are we so low, when took over we were in League One, now struggling in bottom eight of L2. Why?

19:32

Period when we were spending more money than our income. We were in excess of our income trying to be higher up the table, but all it did was drag us into the mire. We got deeper in debt.

Supposedly through acquisition of players who would be better, it would take us higher, but we still performed at bottom eight. We got ourselves into a difficulty which isn't unusual in football and at League Two level.

We had to go to somebody, and EWM stepped in. 2017, 18, 19 we were in really tough times, we started to turn it round and we are now at a point where the budget is the highest we've approved for years.

We think this manager has different ideas and we think he'll push us on. We don't want to be at the bottom, it causes too many sleepless nights. You want to go higher, but it is hard.

19:33

Q - What doing now to be able to pay debt back?

19:34

Slow process, you get into a rut where owners are putting £500k to £1m a year, and it takes a long time to change that culture of reliance. It has been a difficult few years, but it's been a process of polishing corners, undoing errors of the past. We've smoothed out bumps, and it feels that everything is coming together now with the manager. Bit of hope, stability, good financial grounding, and we feel this is the time to build and grow. 

19:35

Q - what doing diferently, what changed to turn the table?

19:38

Like it or not, there is a degree of luck in football. Last deal I did personally was Henderson to Man U. Last one we could do prior to EPPP that we could negotiate. We've had payback from that, and these last two or three years we've stuck with the academy policy and that's been a good cycle. You can see three years with nothing, then a crop  who come through. The other thing is that you need a management that's interested in youngsters to take them forward. Some don't. We had a period where managers didn't seem to be prepared to let young lads develop. That meant what we brought through didn't develop. That's why we need a manager to get on board with you on that.

19:42

We've tried to develop new streams, like iFollow. It could generate around £100k profit. Catering will generate more money than it has before.

Restructure commercial - Jenny is retiring, and we'll have dedicated full-time retail and commercial. Hopefully retail returns will improve because of that. We will have the biggest commercial team we've seen for a while.

We're polishing the stadium, bar sales are up, and literally trying to keep costs as low as possible. Staff absorbing that, doing more without getting paid more money, and at the same time we're doing more on the pitch.

Fundamentally all clubs need some degree of Football Fortune - from player sales, donations - to supplement income. It's the balance of how much you generate yourselves, then how much FF you get.

The combination is what takes you forward. We have managed to build up reserves of cash through good years, and retain for a rainy day to absorb bumps in road. We can then support Paul, and have a bit of assurance money at the same time.

19:43

Hoping this will become one club again, instead of two part. Staff have done an amazing job in difficult circumstances - these lot have managed us through that. Hopefully, with Paul embracing the city again, it will be one club.

19:47

Spending on youth development has gone up and up. We're audited, and it's very precise on what we have to do. We have to spend £500k on that academy each year, and we supplement that by about £100k. The spending we do is by the book on the EPPP rules. As soon as they get to 12 these days if they're any good they're purchased by other clubs. Henderson, Trafford, White - that's why they go. Jarrad - 12 games and a PL club buys him. McCarron and Galloway - Championship want them, and the lure of cash is very strong. It's a lot of money in wages when the clubs come, so these lads move on, and getting these players all the way through is very difficult. Jack makes his debut, who is watching and how many games will he play before he's courted. It's better for our club if they play for us rather than move on.

19:49

Nothing differently on youth side in last 15 years, you just can't guarantee what type of player you're going to get. Who thought Jack Ellis would get a go, but PS believed in him. When you see them in county cup games you think they can do something, but you can't force a manager to play them. Good crop of youngsters, and some good keepers. Fingers crossed.

19:49

Q - do you have end of season reviews with manager at the time?

19:50

You talk to your managers all the time. On a weekly basis.

19:52

In recent times not many managers have made it to end of season to get a review. Chris - sat down and talked with him. Steven and John left - so no. Keith demanded a review, he found it vauable. You can sit and talk and say this is what you said, and challenge them. It's part of proper management of a manager. With Paul, he wants to have conversations like that all the time.

19:55

Paul is club first. It's remarkable. He hasn't come for the money, the ego, he genuinely came because he wanted to help. He believes in the club, the football, the people, and good on him. We all need to recognise that and get behind it. We all said this is our chance, and when opportunities come you have to see them and take them. We knew we had to do what was necessary to get him to stay, but he's not the sort of character who says I want, want want ... We're really working well together.

19:56

Been difficult because we've had a middle man for some time. That's not there, so talking to manager is easier.

19:56

Q - DH, why was he removed?

20:00

Holdings Board made the decision to remove him. In terms of recruitment, careful we don't rewrite history, DH made it clear all along that it was his job to do the deals on the football side. His key role was to do deals to make sure we didn't overspend.

Back to Sheridan, he said, I identify players, DH does the rest. He said himself a number of times, again to make it clear, he had little involvement in identifying players. He did the deals.

Paul has said there's no recruiting in place - throughout time DH was here, not specifically due to him, the recruitment was manager led. They picked the players, he did the deals. Identifying was all on the manager.

Club assistance was provided by sub-contracted scouting, we hired agencies and paid them. DH was home and away watching our team. That was his role, he wasn't identifying. Paul wants a recruitment structure, and that's what we've built for him.

20:00

Q - goal over next 3 years?

20:03

We're in a recovery phase, a lot to do in terms of getting up table. First stage to build a team that can compete consistently. Have to do it quickly, can't have what we had last season.

It will be hard - we can't set targets just yet, but we need players who can perform week in week out, that's a long job getting there, and that's why he has a longer deal. Might get quick fixes, but no guarantees.

If you're churning 10 players every summer, and 3 at Christmas, it's so hard to build a team. I'm sick to death of being in this league, we all are. We want to push on and I think now is our time.

20:03

Q - Henderson money, what do with it?

20:05

I think about it 24 hours a day, I think about it going to bed, getting up in the morning, and when reports of how much he goes for appears. Planning what to do with that is premature. We're going to have debt to deal with, club, team and infrastructure to service. You can spend it all on the team, and that doesn't always go well, you can save it, or spend all on the ground. It would be a great problem to have. 

20:05

We get so much every 10 games for Dean, so it would be very good for us if he played every week. Hopefully the new guy will go with youth, so why not start with Dean in goals.

20:06

Q - increase in ticket prices, 250k depending on attendances, is that for Paul or shared across the club?

20:08

Most going to fuel bills! We increased the budget this season, operating on level of budget we had was untenable. Increased by 20% in June and we'll increase again to help Paul. We need to help him, and part of the overall plan is to say we have to grow our income and recycle into the first team. We need value for money from that, but that means spending wisely.

20:08

Q - why did club go down DoF route in first place. Was it influenced by EWM?

20:09

It was suggested by EWM, and we went along with it to appease the future owners of the club. He was put forward by them

20:12

DH came in and helped us to negotiate better deals to get us back into line. He did some really good stuff, he probably did a good job and helped us significantly in turning that negative cash situation round. But if you're in the bottom two it means something has gone wrong, and something has to change. None of us wanted to go into National League, but DH did help us and he was put in for what we felt were the right reasons. Initially it worked, it wasn't all good or bad.

20:13

Would like to thank caterers - they've been fantastic. Big plans for next season. They've helped us to grow.

20:13

Q - going concern, are Purepay going to give assurances to EFL and who will provide funds for next season?

20:15

Neither are required to do that, it's up to me and Suzanne to provide info to EFL to show that we can go on, and it's the club that will support Simmo. We have submitted that evidence. Purepay weren't able to provide assurance, AJ did. We're looking forward to pushing on.

20:15

Q - what happening at EFL level we need to know about?

20:20

No new proposals for Papa John's Trophy. 2024 cycle on that. Redsitribution is a discussion, too much money jammed at top. PL is best worldwide product, but we don't get benefit of that. Of the total income, just about 12% comes down to EFL, two thirds of it go in parachute payments - so it's going to eight clubs. Fulham and Bournemouth had £46m, and the teams coming down this year will get that. 72 clubs get 4% of the income, that must change.

Two down, four up in our league, don't think that has a future, that's a personal opinion. Also in NL, there are teams that could make good league teams. Need to look at whole structure of football pyramid, and in 2024 we need to negotitate TV deal as 92 clubs, not 72. When that pot is right we need to share it properly. Money must flow to grassroots so that we all benefit - not happening now because there's not much money that comes our way. On a journey as the EFL, hopefully fan led review will help. 

20:20

No big stick with fans on pitch, we must find out why fans want to do it. FA fines go back to them, so let's educate not hit clubs and fans. 

20:22

Q - Managerial appointments, who takes responsibility? 

20:30

Every appointment has been different. Keith - every single thing that KC did was approved by the board. There's no chucking him under the bus. His plan nearly made it.

Sheridan was appointed by a panel. BA, JN, NC and AJ. When Shez left we were doing well. He had fallen out with key players, left and we got compensation. 

Steven was a panel, and it didn't work for him. He walked into a really difficult situation, we were slashing budget and he had to recruit players quickly. Circumstances made it hard.

Chris was a direct appointment, I had no idea he was coming until he arrived. That was one DH did.

Keith was a panel. We were given a shortlist, and DH said on record that he had someone in mind. It didn't work out, but he was best choice on the shortlist at that time.

You can't say you want to appoint someone if they aren't there. David put the shortlist togther, and I voted for Keith even though it didn't work.

Paul - we sat in room, I said to JN, you better ring Paul. All different ways of trying to get best outcome for the club. Paul has changed everything, the mood at Orient in the pub with fans - it was pride and belief. 

It's been a remarkable end to the season. 

No forgiving and forgetting in this place, but for me it's all about the future. Let's put the other nonsense to one side for a bit and let's see what we can do. About time we had success and let's get some more celebration pictures for the wall.

20:31

Thank you everybody, that's the end of this live coverage.

See you all again soon.

[Owen Moxon interview on the website tomorrow]

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